Edit: I have not totally given up faith as you can see from some of my older posts. I mean "rejoin the ranks of the believers" in a figurative sense. This blog is not just about the bad things in Judaism but also the good things, and is just a place where I can figure things out. I haven't gone OTD probably mainly for social reasons but also partly because I'm trying to give Judaism a chance and work on intellectual ways of reconciling my skepticism with Judaism. Anyway just thought y'all should know before you start to think that I totally hate Judaism and that I left, which i suppose the depressing tone of this post might imply. Whatever, enjoy!
Had a bad day so now for some pessimism:
I've been feeling foolish lately. I just reread my post "Drawing Lines" and thought I sounded pretentious. I really should not be so optimistic about tackling problems that have been plaguing the J-blogosphere for years. But now for something completely different... (and rather depressing)
Something that really annoys me is the amount of contempt believers have for skeptics. Just using the words Kofer, and Kefira with all the damnation they imply really bothers me. I think maybe they have this attitude because they don't realize the years of thinking many skeptics or OTD'ers go through before they start talking. Let me tell you a little bit about how I became snarky and skeptical about Judaism. I'm pretty melodramatic about the whole thing but bare with me.
I come from a pretty RWMO family. I had TV and non-Jewish music and was not sheltered at all. When I was very young i became enamored with Torah learning. It became an obsession of mine at a very young age. I would spend hours learning mishnayot and chumash with all the commentaries. I used almost all of my Bar Mitzva money to buy sefarim. I never really loved much else about Judaism I didn't particularly enjoy davening or shabbat but all in all I was extremely happy to be an Orthodox Jew.
I also loved reading and that was my ruin. I didn't just read novels but also history books. One day I picked up a copy of Max Dimont's Jews God and History in one sitting I learned about the DH and about the Pharisees and in short how much had changed in Judaism. Further research led me to find Karaism which I had always assumed was extinct. I realized that the connection between the TSBP and the TSBK was extremely tenuous and most of Judaism had nothing to do with the Torah. At the same time I realized that maybe the Torah was not written by Moshe and that its divinity was contested by many. I spent years making up convoluted explanations for these problems but ultimately failed.
This all terrified me. I loved learning so much and how could I give up Judaism. Wouldn't I have to give all of it up if it turned out that all these new ideas were in fact true? I would sit in my room at night poring over my sefarim and trying to find some sort of answer somewhere to help me with all of this. I searched every Jewish bookstore available for some sort of answer but although I sometimes found a book that gave me a glimmer of hope I eventually realized that there just were not sufficient answers out there.
I went to an UO yeshiva high school because I still loved learning even though I was deeply worried that maybe learning was a complete waste of time. I just could not give it up though. I kept learning always doubting always tinged by guilt that I was thinking about kefira all the time. Was it not assur to think about such dangerous things? I couldn't help it though, as much as I tried to suppress these thoughts they just came back stronger. I tried not to read more "kefiradick" things but I just needed to know how bad things really were. Every time I read a book on Bible criticism I would have contradictory feelings of interest and profound worry.
Ironically all of this made me into a very fervent davener. I had always taken davening seriously but now I actually had something to pray for. I would beg God forgiveness for thinking bad things. I would beg him to grant me belief. I would beg him to forgive me for being hypocritical by doubting him and still praying. This guilt all seems silly to me now but then it obsessed me. Needless to say God in his omnibenevolence decided not to answer me. I still mutter a prayer sometimes just in case.
As high school went on I slowly began to stop caring. I slowly stopped caring about davening then I stopped caring about Shabbat. I was still in denial though. I just would not accept Judaism was flawed and I began to start doing very poorly in school as a result. I decided to talk to Rabbis I thought maybe someone had some sort of magic answer for me. Maybe I was missing something fundamentally important maybe all the "kefira" I had been reading had clouded my mind to something really obvious. I talked with the Rabbis in my yeshiva none of them gave me satisfactory answers. Sometimes I would become hopeful but I always figured out the fallacy in kiruv arguments. When I first heard a good (by propaganda standards) presentation of the Kuzari proof I had so much much hope. In a few days I had figured out all the holes in it.
Eventually one of my Rabbis brought me to the Rosh Yeshiva which was a pretty big deal. He did a worse job than any other Rabbi I had talked to and then when he realized he wasn't winning me over he said "You just don't care enough that's all. You're making excuses" I was so mad! "Not care!" I burst out. "Every day I pray to God to help me all I want is to believe again and you think I don't care!" He wouldn't even look me in the eye! He muttered something about pretending to believe. I stormed out fuming.
Its that attitude that gets me. Its that attitude believers have that we are taking the easy way out, that skeptics just want to undermine Judaism because they have nothing better to do. I poured my heart out in prayer for years. Nobody answered. Does that sound like someone who is just making excuses? Does that sound like someone who is just discussing "kefira" because he enjoys destroying things. The day that I see a genuine miracle I will gladly rejoin the ranks of the believers. A message to all believers: ITS NOT OUR FAULT FOR DOUBTING! And I'm not willing to pretend that everything is fine I demand the right to discuss my views even if it may be branded kefira by the believers. I'm not trying to proselytize if this or any other blog makes you lose faith DON'T READ IT. And if I comment on a believer's blog its only because I love arguing like any other Jew.
I didn't choose to become skeptic. It just happened. I loved Judaism and had nothing to gain from losing most of my faith in it. I made a genuine effort to find answers for my questions but just couldn't. I'm sure God will understand.
Edit: I realized that I really generalized a lot here. I know many believers even from the Chareidi sector who understand my skepticism and were very supportive. My rant here was against those believers who for one reason or another accuse me of being skeptical to make my life easier (which doesn't make sense because it made my life harder.)Its against people like that that I'm directing this post.
Be All that You Can Be
2 days ago


21 comments:
Hey, saw your comments at XGH. I'm pretty much in your boat, except it was a much longer process so there was less angst at any given point.
It seems you are still mentally in your old world. Of all the people in the world, you feel defensive toward the believers. But why? You know everything they know, and plenty they don't. You know why they have to look at skeptics the way they do.
Best to look at the more obnoxious ones as ignorant children, and at the more benign ones with sympathy and understanding (we were there too, once). Eventually, I think you'll gain some equanimity.
That's the thing not every believer has to look at a skeptic that way.
I talked to many Chareidi Rabbis about my problems and almost all of them were sympathetic and supportive. What bothers me is people like that Rosh Yeshiva who are just terrible to people seeking help.
But yeah its hard to let go. I'm still in the process of figuring out how to deal with all of it.
Ironically all of this made me into a very fervent davener. I had always taken davening seriously but now I actually had something to pray for. I would beg God forgiveness for thinking bad things. I would beg him to grant me belief. I would beg him to forgive me for being hypocritical by doubting him and still praying. . . .
The Rosh Yeshiva . . . did a worse job than any other Rabbi I had talked to and then when he realized he wasn't winning me over he said "You just don't care enough that's all. You're making excuses"
Sad story. It's a bit like reading Edmund Gosse's Father and Son, which concerns Christians in the 19th century. Specific doctrinal contents aside, similar things happen when one builds a way of life on an unreasonable faith (by which I mean not belief in God per se but acceptance of specific historical claims that cannot be squared with known facts) and teaches young people that to doubt is sin and failure.
Great blog. I look forward to more.
Shilton, I really commiserate with you. At this point, I'm pretty much resolved to the whole situation, but that issue that you touch upon, that believers say we just don't want to believe, is my biggest pet peeve. If I ever decide to post again, that will probably be my driver, to rebut that charge.
@J
I just reread what you said
>It seems you are still mentally in your old world.
Primarily because I'm also physically in my old world (i'm not OTD)
@BH
Please start posting again!
What amazes me is when they call skeptics "scoffers" as though we smugly ignore their convincing proofs, when it's actually they who scoff at reality.
The problem with some skeptics is that they display the same arrogance they are condemning from the religious group they've left. They have the same certainty they're right as the people they criticize for being so certain that they're right. And that hypocrisy is very frustrating.
It's one things to say "Listen, I have doubts. I could be wrong but right now this is how I feel based on what I've learned" and I don't think anyone reasonable would be bothered by that. It's quite another to say "I read a secular book about DH and now I realize it's all hooey and religion is totally wrong!" which is the approach many skeptics take.
In addition, there is the selectiveness that many OTD's use to justify their skepticism. To wit: only ultra-Orthodoxy is real Judaism. Ultra-orthodoxy can't answer my questions in a way that is acceptable to me. Therefore there are no answer.
What about Modern Orthodox? Well because they're not ultra-Orthodox they're not really Orthodox at all but a bunch of pious hypocrites so their answers, which if the OTD's stopped to listen to them might be acceptable, are automatically rejected.
Most every skeptic concern has been dealt with satisfactorily by the other side. The intimate connection between the Written and Oral law? Been done. Reconciling the accounts of creation and the flood in Bereshis with natural history? Been done. Understanding the transition between Temple and post-Temple Judaism as conducted by the Sages? Been done. But accepting that these answers exist make it harder for some skeptics who aren't really skeptical at all but just want out.
Wow garnel that was a a great speech I just hope you realize almost none of it is applicable to me (maybe it wasn't meant for me)because
A. I'm not OTD
B. Although a book about the DH and Pharisees got me thinking my main problem is not the DH and Pharisees
C. I personally am totally pro distinguishing between MO and UO
"Listen, I have doubts. I could be wrong but right now this is how I feel based on what I've learned"
Yeah thats pretty much my view I don't think I've said anywhere on my blog that its all hooey and religion is wrong, in fact on my blog I try to give religion a fighting chance. Listen maybe you didn't get it but I am totally biased FOR religion. I have absolutely no reason whatsoever to want to get out of it if there is anything out there to help out OJ I'll be the first to accept it - but only if its not rubbish!
I assume you say the prayer on my sidebar everyday with a lot of kavanna. I hope that your optimism continues but don't say that I want out!!!
What Garnel is really saying: It's perfectly fine that people see through the falsehood of Orthodox Judaism and chuck it. What's really disturbing to him is seeing how many people *embrace* Orthodox Judaism, even after so little critical thinking. Heck, children are assumed to be Orthodox Jews at day ONE, as long as their parents are Orthodox! Holy crap! College students go on a few weeks' trip to Israel, drink the kool-aid, and bam! They're frum! Not chas v'shalom OTDers like myself or Shilton who spend two decades in yeshiva, and only after heart-wrenching deliberation conclude that it is nothing but a pack of lies sold by con artists and spin doctors like Garnel!
>The problem with some skeptics is that they display the same arrogance they are condemning from the religious group they've left.
"No David, I'm not prepared to change my mind."
Pot, meet kettle.
>Not chas v'shalom OTDers like myself or Shilton who spend two decades in yeshiva, and only after heart-wrenching deliberation conclude that it is nothing but a pack of lies sold by con artists and spin doctors like Garnel!
I'm Not OTD I'm Orthoprax (I need to put that in big letters or something lol) . And I wouldn't put it quite as forcefully as that (though sometimes on bad days it just feel like one big conspiracy)
try to keep the your rivalry with garnel to a minimum in the comments (Though he does get frustrating sometimes) thanks
Garnel,
>They have the same certainty they're right as the people they criticize for being so certain that they're right.
No no no. You misunderstand. I'm not certain about the DH and God. But I'm certain that OJ is false.
>In addition, there is the selectiveness that many OTD's use to justify their skepticism. To wit: only ultra-Orthodoxy is real Judaism. Ultra-orthodoxy can't answer my questions in a way that is acceptable to me. Therefore there are no answer.
There is a selectiveless that many MO's use to justify their beliefs. And that is by a step by step distancing themselves from beliefs held by their ancestors.
>Most every skeptic concern has been dealt with satisfactorily by the other side.
The intimate connection between the Written and Oral law? Been done. Reconciling the accounts of creation and the flood in Bereshis with natural history? Been done.
Dealt with, yes. But not satisfactorily. The primary issue is that they are ad-hoc answers cobbled together after the fact to address the concerns of each new generation.
Slifkin and other apolegetics are a defensive dance. Ultimately, MO is being painted into a corner just as sure as you seem to be willing to toss UOJ into the sea.
Interestingly, I think the fundamentalists offer a better picture of consistency than the reformers do. Maybe that is why the MO youth are hemmoraghing to the Charieidi world.
> It's one things to say "Listen, I have doubts. I could be wrong but right now this is how I feel based on what I've learned"
I freely admit that I could be wrong and some particular brand of Orthodox Judaism could be the Truth, but I think it’s very unlikely. What I don’t have are “doubts” about religion. Characterizing skeptic’s problems with religion as “doubts” implies that religious belief is the default, and that one must start by assuming a particular set of religious beliefs are true and abandon them only if one has reason to doubt them.
> What about Modern Orthodox?
Do the MO believe in the existence of God? See, that’s a problem. Further, if you’re willing to explain away the parts of the Chumash that don’t mesh well with reality by treating them as allegory etc., why won’t you extend the same courtesy to the religious texts of other faiths?
> I think maybe they have this attitude because they don't realize the years of thinking many skeptics or OTD'ers go through before they start talking.
They don’t recognize that it’s possible for someone to have legitimate intellectual questions. After all, Judaism is self-evident. Didn’t Avraham Avinu realize Hashem is in charge of the world while sitting in a cave as a child? Given that the Judaism is self-evident, the only reason a person would be skeptical is if they want to do things forbidden by halacha. They therefore convince themselves that because there are all these problems with Yiddishkeit to justify their violating halacha.
> Was it not assur to think about such dangerous things?
Which is brilliant, no? Even thinking about things which might lead you to questions is assur, which prevents you from thinking about them and keeps you as another mind for the religion to inhabit.
> when he realized he wasn't winning me over he said "You just don't care enough that's all. You're making excuses" I was so mad!
People often resort to ad hominem attacks as a last-ditch defense when they realize their arguments aren’t working.
It’s hardly surprising. Yeshivos don’t really teach hashkofa, and the Rosh Yeshiva is the biggest lamden, not a philosopher or theologian (or even a kiruv guy).
>which prevents you from thinking about them and keeps you as another mind for the religion to inhabit.
consult prayer on sidebar
> Interestingly, I think the fundamentalists offer a better picture of consistency than the reformers do
Thank you Baal Habos for proving each one of my points.
By the way, this Marvin was the far superior of the two:
http://nooneisreadingthis.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/marvin_the_robot.jpg
The new Marvin is 100X better than the BBC one sorry. (The scene where he shoots the Vogons lmao)
O and you missed BH's point completely (Imagine me passing my hand over my head and making a *swoosh* sound. Then I proceed to face palm *light smack* Then I move my hand slowly down my face and.....
....give up)
Good post. It sounds like you will have an enjoyable blog (especially if you keep your same optimistic attitude and don't get involved in constant arguing with other bloggers). :)
I think that there was an older type of Judaism of European Jews that had great respect for the Talmud and Talmudic scholars but also for Socrates Kant and Aristotle. It was in spirit based on the rambam but not in every detail. It was based on this idea of the rambam that there is no essential difference between the Talmud and Aristotle. Each one is just describing some different aspect of reality but there is no essential contradiction between them (except in the specific places where the rambam says there is). This was the Judaism of the quiet majority of Jews that were not rabid secularists nor rabid fanatic rabbis. But this Judaism never had a name. It was not reform because it loved torah and Talmud. But it was not orthodox because it loved Aristotle Plato and science. It was no name Judaism. It was Judaism built of common sense and human values and a healthy respect for Torah and all humanity. It has never had a name and no one has ever come close to defining it and it has never been in the public eye. It has just been the quite simple Judaism of plain simple Jews.
This is pretty much what I follow =) thanks for posting
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