tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post1249077508148039516..comments2023-06-14T10:33:15.008-04:00Comments on Shilton HaSechel שלטון השכל: The Orthodox Theory of EverythingShilton HaSechelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11445959470426455186noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-55000219233008570762010-07-16T18:08:44.481-04:002010-07-16T18:08:44.481-04:00I thoght the Rambam's statements in the Introd...I thoght the Rambam's statements in the Introduction to the Mishna made his views clear but hey I could be wrong<br /><br />Can you bring me specific quotes?<br /><br />ThanksShilton HaSechelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11445959470426455186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-36223961346122621992010-07-16T15:53:46.028-04:002010-07-16T15:53:46.028-04:00-That's all well and good but if you're st...-That's all well and good but if you're stupid even if you kept the Torah 100% it's still no afterlife for you. Sorry for the inconvenience.<br /><br /><br />Not true, read the guide again and the peirush hamishnayos on avos and the shemonah perakim.E-Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327848648278849664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-84424542652107613412010-07-16T15:22:10.714-04:002010-07-16T15:22:10.714-04:00>Exactly, the more you do and understand in thi...>Exactly, the more you do and understand in this world, the greater your afterlife will be. That is the point. <br /><br />That's all well and good but if you're stupid even if you kept the Torah 100% it's still no afterlife for you. Sorry for the inconvenience. <br /><br />Also it's all based on obsolete Aristotleanism but whatever.Shilton HaSechelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11445959470426455186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-55762080190040012222010-07-16T00:31:38.683-04:002010-07-16T00:31:38.683-04:00"He says that when a person dies their intell..."He says that when a person dies their intellect is the part of them that lasts forever.":<br /><br />Perhaps he means to say the intellect of the person that he left for the generations to come. Euclid has been dead for thousads of years but we still talk about him. In that sense, and only in that sense, can be person gain immortality (if you want to call it "immortality").<br /><br />E-man, why do you believe in an afterlife? You do realize what a silly concept it is? Every ounce of my reason points me away from such a childish concept. Everything that we know today in neuroscience points out away from any kind of metaphysical soul that survives daeth. How can someone possibly believe in an afterlife in today's age? <br /><br />Here is a good video about afterlife: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9bMi4s_yOEBaruch Spinozahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11879864721961862810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-30188970920492350532010-07-15T21:51:42.015-04:002010-07-15T21:51:42.015-04:00> People keep saying this to me and I have to s...> People keep saying this to me and I have to say that I have no idea where this lie, that there is no Hell is Judaism, came from (maybe wishful thinking).<br /><br />Gehenom is more similar to Purgatory than it is to Hell.G*3https://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-7362995588511456252010-07-15T18:26:29.851-04:002010-07-15T18:26:29.851-04:00Exactly, the more you do and understand in this wo...Exactly, the more you do and understand in this world, the greater your afterlife will be. That is the point.E-Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327848648278849664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-88019996123332627302010-07-15T17:46:41.570-04:002010-07-15T17:46:41.570-04:00>Shilton, the Reform movement claims there is n...>Shilton, the Reform movement claims there is no hell in Judaism. <br /><br />Obviously, and I'm not exactly a fan of Hell myself (not cuz I'm scared of going there lol but just because I think it's a silly concept) But you can't say that "there is no Hell in Judaism" when historically there just is.<br /><br />>their intellect is the part of them that lasts forever. Hence, he believes in an eternal life. <br /><br />That's only if you got "acquired intellect" by turning "potential intellect" into "active intellect" a task which only philosophers can do very successfully leaving most people with not much of an afterlife.Shilton HaSechelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11445959470426455186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-32920572918153133642010-07-15T17:37:47.236-04:002010-07-15T17:37:47.236-04:00Shilton, the Reform movement claims there is no he...Shilton, the Reform movement claims there is no hell in Judaism. <br /><br />BS- The Rambam can;t hold that. He says that when a person dies their intellect is the part of them that lasts forever. Hence, he believes in an eternal life.E-Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327848648278849664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-78130834877620046042010-07-15T17:04:38.174-04:002010-07-15T17:04:38.174-04:00The Old Testament is not Judaism,
Judaism = Rabb...The Old Testament is not Judaism, <br /><br />Judaism = Rabbinical Judaism<br /><br />The Rambam is an exception <br /><br />>there is no hell in Judaism, really<br /><br />People keep saying this to me and I have to say that I have no idea where this lie, that there is no Hell is Judaism, came from (maybe wishful thinking). <br /><br />The Gemara (as well as most Orthodox Jews) believes in "Gehennom" a place where the evildoers get BURNT for eternity or for a while (depending on different versions) If that's not Hell then I don't know what is!Shilton HaSechelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11445959470426455186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-16938381537670258922010-07-15T16:42:47.398-04:002010-07-15T16:42:47.398-04:00"What???":
Afterlife not mentioned any..."What???": <br /><br />Afterlife not mentioned anywhere in Old Testament. The position of Rambam is that Jews die. What happens to them after death is not clear. Some believe they go to a form of temporary afterlife to get resurrected again after death when Meschiach returns. Some believe they just wait, with no afterlife, until Meschiach comes back and they live again after the resurrection of the dead. What happens after the dead are ressurected. Some believe people live forever, but I think Rambam says that the 2nd life is temporary. Eventually people do not live anymore. Furthermore, there is no hell in Judaism, really, the worst is kareis when the soul is destroyed from existing.Baruch Spinozahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11879864721961862810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-2546393264846338092010-07-15T14:59:36.897-04:002010-07-15T14:59:36.897-04:00>Besides, Jews do not believe in afterlife.
W...>Besides, Jews do not believe in afterlife. <br /><br />What???Shilton HaSechelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11445959470426455186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-55862640919436349062010-07-15T14:41:14.018-04:002010-07-15T14:41:14.018-04:00"By the way, here's an easy solution to t..."By the way, here's an easy solution to the problem of evil: this is the afterlife. Bad things happen to good people because they were bad in their lives, and their punishment is to be given a mind that compels them to be good, yet to have a lot of pain.": <br /><br />I have an easier solution. It is all a bunch of non-sense. This is the best solution that there is. Besides, Jews do not believe in afterlife. <br />---<br /><br />Is God willing to prevent evil but unable?<br />Then he is not omnipotent. <br />Is Gos able to prevent evil but unwilling?<br />Then he is manevolent. <br />Is he both able and willing? <br />Then whence cometh evil? <br />Is he neither able nor willing? <br />Then why call him God?Baruch Spinozahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11879864721961862810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-52003042500749121082010-07-15T13:30:49.836-04:002010-07-15T13:30:49.836-04:00The usual response at this point, as far as I can ...The usual response at this point, as far as I can tell anyway, is "there will always be some mysteries as to God's will."<br /><br />By the way, here's an easy solution to the problem of evil: this is the afterlife. Bad things happen to good people because they were bad in their lives, and their punishment is to be given a mind that compels them to be good, yet to have a lot of pain.Puzzledhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12866127197554237039noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-53316439326901475152010-07-15T08:07:48.372-04:002010-07-15T08:07:48.372-04:00E-man,
>they were most likely exaggerated to i...E-man,<br /><br />>they were most likely exaggerated to inspire people to work hard. <br /><br />THose stories do the opposite they inspire you to give up because they basically say "well you'll never become a Godol because all the Gedolim were insanely smarter than you so might as well give up ever trying to be like them"<br /><br />BS,<br /><br />Turn it down a notch. Stop going on sexual tangents. Thanks.<br /><br />Anonymous,<br /><br />Couldn't have said it better myself. <br /><br />BTW this whole discussion reminds me of a scene in the matrix where the computer-robot-agent thing explains to Neo that they tried making a perfect matrix - where the virtual world was all good and not bad at all - but the people hooked up to the first matrix kept waking up. So they had to make a new matrix where people had suffering. <br /><br />Sort of a sci-fi Nahama De'Kisufa.Shilton HaSechelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11445959470426455186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-43320498122740389732010-07-15T02:33:33.935-04:002010-07-15T02:33:33.935-04:00The point of the original post was that the statem...The point of the original post was that the statement "An omnipotent, benevolent G-d created a universe in which effort is necessary, in order that we should receive greater reward through effort" appears to be false because an omnipotent G-d seeking to bestow maximum good would create a universe where recipients receive maximum good without experiencing effort/suffering as a prerequisite. Creating a universe where recipients receive maximum good and have no negative experiences is not the same thing at all as creating a four-sided triangle ("a four-sided triangle" is simply a meaningless combination of words, as are the other examples provided). It would seem that an omnipotent, benevolent G-d could certainly create a universe (and by universe we mean all of creation, including the experienced world and olam habah) that contained only positive experiences. <br /><br />Now the response of some is that from G-d's perspective of infinite wisdom outside this universe it is clear that the best possible combination includes effort/suffering. Aside from saying that this response appears to defy common sense, we cannot, of course, absolutely disprove it since we do not stand in G-d’s position. However, we can still say that the original statement is flawed because it is taking a property of the created universe (i.e., effort is necessary for greater reward) and using it to answer the question as to why the universe was created with the property of effort being necessary for reward in the first place. So, in other words, the argument is circular -- Q: Why did G-d create a universe in which inhabitants experience reward only following effort/suffering? A: Because a property of this universe is that maximum reward is possible only with effort/suffering. Circular logic.<br /><br />Another simple, common-sense way of looking at this problem is the following: "Good only, with no bad" must by definition be "more good" than "good with bad". Therefore a universe of "maximum good" must not include "bad". If the universe includes “bad”, it is by definition not "maximum good". If the universe is not “maximum good” then why did an omnipotent, supremely benevolent G-d create it? To create a universe of “maximum good” that also includes “bad” seems to be an inherent impossibility, like creating a “four-sided triangle” and it would seem that even an omnipotent G-d could not have the ability to create a universe of “maximum good” that includes bad experiences. Or, to put it another way, a universe that includes bad experiences cannot be “maximum good” and it would appear that its creator, by definition, cannot be supremely benevolent.<br /><br />This problem becomes even more acute when it is used to answer the question of why bad things happen to good people, or why G-d created suffering. One of the standard answers is that in some deep way the greatest good in this universe can only be achieved through suffering. But this response is inadequate because the obvious question is why did G-d create this very universe in the first place in which suffering is necessary for maximum good?<br /><br />A point to note is that the argument does not prove that the maximum experience of good by humans does not require suffering. That may very well be true. The argument just appears to disprove the thesis that a G-d that is omnipotent and supremely benevolent created the universe.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-76337980280512464122010-07-15T00:27:48.463-04:002010-07-15T00:27:48.463-04:00E-man,
I know you yourself were not saying that ...E-man, <br /><br />I know you yourself were not saying that Rabbis are mathematicians, just only Levi ben Gerson, but the Orthodox community does. I wanted to hear an Orthodox Jew actually admit to me what what the Rabbis say about past Rabbis is untrue in their regard to science and mathematics. <br /><br />You never watched a single porno in your life? Not once?! You never had a curiously to see what is going on? Never? Not even for a few minutes? You are at an age that a guy will probably watch it at least once. But I would believe you if you said "no". I know that I myself stood away from porn back when I was still religious. But after I gave up Judaism I opened up to sexual exploration. All I have to say is that porn is good for the soul. I think there should be a law mandating every male to watch porn regulary. <br /><br />So in case you do not know some porn has a plot in it. For example, some big breasted girl in short clothing is at college and failing all her classes. So she needs to raise her grades. So the porno develops into a plot. And you learn the charachter names, such as the professors she sleeps with (which strangely turn out to be good looking guys, when was the last time you saw a good looking professor). My problem with all of that is that I do not care! I can assure you I am not watching porn to see some awesome piece of story telling. So I do not care about the plot. And I most certainly do not care about the charachter names. All I care about is something to masturbate to. That is it. Skip the plot, skip the charachter development, skip the bad acting, skip the theme, and just have sex. Porn plots really are just about the most useless thing in the world. <br /><br />Actually I would join a porn film if I could get accepted. It looks so fun! But the problem is, sadly, they have standards. Apparently my penis is too tiny to be in a porno, ohh, that hurts, ohh, that makes me so sad, why, why does it have to be so tiny.Baruch Spinozahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11879864721961862810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-43241028547857673622010-07-15T00:03:14.621-04:002010-07-15T00:03:14.621-04:00BTW, I meant you are a funny man because of your l...BTW, I meant you are a funny man because of your last line.E-Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327848648278849664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-82342249673985406302010-07-14T23:52:53.545-04:002010-07-14T23:52:53.545-04:00BS, you are a funny man. I never denied that most ...BS, you are a funny man. I never denied that most Rabbis are not qualified to discuss science, math and other things on a deep level. All I said was Ralbag was a mathematical genius, which you admit was true. I am sorry there are many religious believers out there that just repeat what they are told by their Rabbis which repeat what they were told by their Rabbis and so on without actually thinking about what they are saying. The Gedolim stories that are made up without basis are misunderstood by so many. Do I think that the Gra also was able to learn Gemora better than anyone around him when he was 6 or 7? No, I think that he might have been a genius for his age, but I do not think those stories about him were accurate, they were most likely exaggerated to inspire people to work hard. <br /><br />This is how I view your story, from my perspective. I was also able to come up with this idea before I learned, or even knew who the Rambam was. I think that some truths are obvious even to children who have rudimentary knowledge of general things nowadays. There is this idea of G-D, who is unlimited in "power." When you ask the question can G-D make a rock He can;t lift, everyone should realize that an unlimited being is not able to be limited, so the answer is no. However, that is not a limit of G-D. <br /><br />However, back in the day when they did not understand science on the same level even a 3rd grader understands it today, I think the world needed someone like the Rambam to "figure" it out. <br /><br />I would agree with you that made up theology is pointless (which I assume is how you view Judaism). However, since I believe in G-D then my theology is very purposeful in my eyes. <br /><br />BTW, fan on the A/C is great when it is 70 outside and the previous day was 85 and I would say something about the plot subject, but I am not qualified to discuss pornos.E-Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327848648278849664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-40983518980141690252010-07-14T23:50:04.198-04:002010-07-14T23:50:04.198-04:00Baruch,
Idiots often run around saying those sort...Baruch,<br /><br />Idiots often run around saying those sorts of things, that the Rabbis were geniuses and were smarter than goyim in math etc. etc.<br /><br />However I don't think E-man is quite saying that Rabbis in general are mathematically superior all he was doing is defending the Ralbag.Shilton HaSechelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11445959470426455186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-77474840777618285822010-07-14T23:30:43.437-04:002010-07-14T23:30:43.437-04:00E-man,
Levi ben Gerson was a mathematician, I ac...E-man, <br /><br />Levi ben Gerson was a mathematician, I actually know who he is (I know him primarily for making proof by induction more formal). I did not know that was also the Ralbag. Yes you are correct he was a mathematician. And I was absolutely entirely wrong to call him a mathematical retard. <br /><br />So why was I intellectually lazy to look up the Ralbag on the internet? Because I had enough experience in yeshiva and in the Orthodox community. You have no idea how many times I have heard my classmates and Rabbis tell me how mathematically brilliant the people of the Gemara were. And what an outstanding mathematician the Vilna Goan was. No, the people of the Gemara were mathematical retards, childish mathematics that is not impressive, already developed by Euclid. The Vilna Goan certainly loved Euclid (who possibly cannot love Euclid?) and studied him but that does not make a Vilna Goan a mathematician. The Goan lived in the 1700's at that time you had real mathematician geniuses like Euler and Bernouli and Gauss. There people far far far far surpassed anything the Vilna Goan was able to accomplish. So the Vilna Goan was no mathematician and not genius of mathematics. <br /><br />So now I want you to admit to me that 99% of the all Rabbis and commentaries in the Gemara and Mishna that the Jewish world almost worships for their amazing mathematical talents really had no mathematical talent whatsoever. If you disagree, take the Vilna Goan, for example, then provide me his work so that I can be impressed with what he did. Otherwise, stop repeating this non-sense about the mathematical superiority of the Rabbis. <br /><br />Here is another thing I wanted to say. This is what is actually relevant. When I was in 8th grade I have actually developed a lot of theological ideas myself. For example, the existence of problems that God cannot solve. I also came up with others. And my questions and answers that I had could have been find in the Rambam and other commentators. Here is my question. What is more likely: that I was some super gifted kid in theological issues with a natural talent for it that or that the whole theological issue is a load of non-sense that even an 8th grader can contribute to? I think the second one is more likely. <br /><br />Theology is just pointless, just as pointless as the fan option on your air conditioner, and just as pointless as a plot in a porno.Baruch Spinozahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11879864721961862810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-25476668822668657832010-07-14T22:06:39.813-04:002010-07-14T22:06:39.813-04:00> in other words God MUST let his bountiful goo...> in other words God MUST let his bountiful goodness overflow from within himself and cause the creation. In other words God's goodness is sort of a cosmic force of nature. I dunno if any of that makes sense<br /><br />Not really. At least, not without completely redefining “God” from an omnipotent omniscient Being to a mechanistic guiding force. Then again, a lot of Jewish theology is mechanistic, and kabbalah even more so.G*3https://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-41568576870302787792010-07-14T22:03:49.973-04:002010-07-14T22:03:49.973-04:00As explained to me by my Rabbi in Shaalvim, there ...As explained to me by my Rabbi in Shaalvim, there are basically two approaches. He labeled them the Mesilas Yesharim approach and the Kuzari approach. I would just label them the Mystic approach vs the rationalistic approach.<br /><br />The Mesilas Yesharim says this world is a pruzdoor, a hallway, to the next world. So the whole point of this world is to rack up as many "points" as you can until you die. These points can be attained through righteous deeds like commandments or suffering like being beaten by gentiles or wicked Jews. Then you will go to heaven and spend eternity with G-D. The point of life is, therefore, to rack up as many points because the more points you rack up here the closer you are to G-D for eternity. <br /><br />The Kuzari (which I would think is also probably the Rambam, Meiri, Ralbag, Ibn Kaspi, etc.) approach is different. It is that the purpose of life is to do good in this world to make THIS world a better place and help your fellow man. This is accomplished through doing the Mitzvos and such. But also, at the same time, by doing good deeds in this world you are acquiring the world to come. <br /><br />So, basically, it is an argument if this world is worth wasting your time being a part of. The Ramchal and his school of thought basically would say study torah, don't go out into the world, stay as far away from other people as possible and just learn Torah and do the commandments in seclusion. The Kuzari approach would say, be a part of this world, donate to society and make this world a better place. Both approaches believe in the world to come, but one believes in the worth whileness of making this world a better place and one believes this world should be shunned if possible.E-Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327848648278849664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-82025047226969150782010-07-14T21:50:47.802-04:002010-07-14T21:50:47.802-04:00Nu, so what is it?Nu, so what is it?Shilton HaSechelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11445959470426455186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-10565623822233174432010-07-14T21:25:48.653-04:002010-07-14T21:25:48.653-04:00Abe, true a belief in G-D does not necessarily lea...Abe, true a belief in G-D does not necessarily lead to a belief in humans having a purpose. However, a belief in Judaism does, no?E-Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327848648278849664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-15455474090231602162010-07-14T20:55:21.840-04:002010-07-14T20:55:21.840-04:00Abe,
Lol you made your point very um ... repeatedl...Abe,<br />Lol you made your point very um ... repeatedly ;)<br /><br />Yes I suppose the Kid's original question assumes we have some sort of purpose which is a bit hasty of him but most religious people believe, in addition to a belief in God, that we have some sort of purpose in this world.Shilton HaSechelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11445959470426455186noreply@blogger.com