tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post2890605091794083354..comments2023-06-14T10:33:15.008-04:00Comments on Shilton HaSechel שלטון השכל: How I Became Skeptical Part II : My Pandora's BoxShilton HaSechelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11445959470426455186noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-35961914442986091382013-07-17T20:54:37.608-04:002013-07-17T20:54:37.608-04:00SH - Please stop giving aid to the enemy.SH - Please stop giving aid to the enemy.anonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-88597749915438250972010-07-23T15:41:13.341-04:002010-07-23T15:41:13.341-04:00The lack of morality in the frum world bothered me...The lack of morality in the frum world bothered me. But then I think the twisting of Talmudic halacha to fit modern halacha bothered me. Then I think it bothered me the fact that the Jewish people were surprised to hear about Sukot (at the begining of the second temple).<br /><br />And yet my own happy experiences in yeshiva and in Israel made me wonder. I felt that one could still serve God through the myths of Torah. Myths that take a higher reality and make it concrete.<br />My feeling is that everything depends on serving God and serving God in the Jewish way means learning Talmud and trying to keep it as best as one can. But that it did discover is a bit dry and even in yeshiva I needed the encouragement of Rabbi Nachman. I think in the context of the ideas of Rebbi Nachman I can find a way and a place where it all makes sense. <br /> The bottom line as well as I can see it is that every Jew should learn Gemara at least a little bit every day and be by Rebbi Nachman for Rosh Hashanah.<br /><br />I don’t think being frum in the conventional way is good or in accord with the Talmud in except in a few rituals. It seems to me that Orthodox Judaism today is a perversion of the Talmud. Only in places where Talmud is studied seriously (i.e. Litvak yeshivot) can one taste a little bit of the real light of torah. Unfortunately most of those places (most Yeshivot) have been infected with modern chareidi or MO Judaism which is as far from Talmud as voodoo is from modern medicine.Avraham https://www.blogger.com/profile/07822433921393627746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-47955532580020845002010-06-19T21:53:15.537-04:002010-06-19T21:53:15.537-04:00S, this morning thoughts of Paul Johnson filled my...S, this morning thoughts of Paul Johnson filled my head. I wonder why :)Baal Haboshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12861222390091673835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-84015958454165077282010-06-16T10:33:02.245-04:002010-06-16T10:33:02.245-04:00Re PJ, I'm just saying that its ironic. I supp...Re PJ, I'm just saying that its ironic. I suppose someone might reply that the book can be likened to the Para Aduma (metaher temeim, metameh tehorim). This is, of course, why it isn't assigned in high schools, while Berel Wein's is. The sort who like PJ, as I described, are or consider themselves mature adults. Likely the presence of a few contentions they can't agree with only lends it more credibility in their eyes. That is, they expect to not be able to agree with a "secular historian" and see such things as proof that he is in fact the real deal, but the book is filled with many pleasant surprises of the kind mentioned here, so it becomes a good source of edification. <br /><br />The problem with PJ is the same problem with the works of many popular historians., and the cause of the many flaws of such works. Ultimately he is not a Jewish historian. He can't read the primary sources, which would be the very first thing focused on to dismiss him if his book wasn't so congenial.S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-796292810314668252010-06-16T06:48:13.431-04:002010-06-16T06:48:13.431-04:00Shilton, I don't remember what specifically pu...Shilton, I don't remember what specifically pushed my me over, just the general picture. Tidbits such as other Temples existed in the ANE with the same dimensions as ours, which I read in Return to Sodom and Gomorrah. See http://baalhabos.blogspot.com/2006/07/making-of-skeptic-or-5-books-of-baal.html<br /><br />S, same is true for Paul Johnson. While not outright heretical, he opened my eyes and gave me a less chareidi-ized pitcure of Jewish history as compared to "the History of the Jewish people" by Chaim Doc Rabinowitz which I read shortly before PJ.Baal Haboshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12861222390091673835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-58126407833359827862010-06-15T23:36:39.408-04:002010-06-15T23:36:39.408-04:00M-n, do you know which book it was? I'm fine i...M-n, do you know which book it was? I'm fine if you would just paraphrase.Zippynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-53821097185685180382010-06-15T23:08:12.165-04:002010-06-15T23:08:12.165-04:00Sorry, I don't have the book (and neither does...Sorry, I don't have the book (and neither does the Internet's usual sources) and I don't want to misquote it.M-nnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-5107930681665038172010-06-15T22:51:02.128-04:002010-06-15T22:51:02.128-04:00"The book that did give me that shocked feeli..."The book that did give me that shocked feeling was something Rabbi Louis Jacobs wrote about TSBP. It was one sentence but it was SO FUCKING OBVIOUS after I read it that I burned with shame and shock for not having realized it"<br /><br />M-n, what was the sentence?Zippynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-10835885075853285432010-06-15T21:42:40.898-04:002010-06-15T21:42:40.898-04:00Yes, but where are the fossils? WHERE ARE THE FOS...Yes, but where are the fossils? WHERE ARE THE FOSSILS?! <br /><br />Ahem. All done. <br /><br />For me, there were two simultaneous processes. One was a gradual process of realizing that the sureties I had been given were not at all sure (no, Rabbi X didn't actually know what he was talking about when he told me Spiritual Truth Y), and gradually becoming more open-minded <i>within</i> an Orthodox framework, until I found I was out of it. At the same time, I was learning more and more about science, philosophy, religion, and the world, which contributed heavily to this.<br /><br />The other was a sense that my rabbis really had no right to try to guide my life as they had tried to, and a resulting loss of deference to their authority.JewishGadflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03531540800635608198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-84961927226323716182010-06-15T18:05:52.975-04:002010-06-15T18:05:52.975-04:00lol fine Spinoza the EARLIER ONElol fine Spinoza the EARLIER ONEShilton HaSechelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11445959470426455186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-42206301225039271912010-06-15T17:13:48.693-04:002010-06-15T17:13:48.693-04:00"Yeah Spinoza (the real one) was ahead of his..."Yeah Spinoza (the real one) was ahead of his times. Imagine how much intellectual honesty it took for him to reject the Bible in his day and age. Imagine the amount of conditioning he had to overcome. Almost no one in Europe doubted the Bible but he just stuck to his guns. ":<br /><br />The REAL ONE? Oh my science, ... what do you mean by that?! Are you trying to suggest that I am not the real one? You know, we skeptics have feelings too. And you just made me cryBaruch Spinozahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11879864721961862810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-80136917237198472722010-06-15T16:35:48.504-04:002010-06-15T16:35:48.504-04:00S., you miss my point (or I was unclear). I meant ...S., you miss my point (or I was unclear). I meant to highlight his arrogance in assuming that scientists had never thought of his "chiddush," no doubt due to his parochial feelings towards milah. "If only they'd have a bit of Jewish knowledge they'd see how wrong they are." It's ironic that he's think he's so clever that he can come up with something that would upshlug the work of a century and half of tens of thousands of brilliant minds--when he clearly hasn't the faintest clue what they say!M-nnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-54206692002624973912010-06-15T15:20:24.798-04:002010-06-15T15:20:24.798-04:00That's not ironic. It shows that at least he i...That's not ironic. It shows that at least he instinctively stumbled onto the ball field (albeit on the losing team). Of course the game is rounders, and it's 1830, not baseball and 2010.S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-2260108692158682452010-06-15T14:27:26.970-04:002010-06-15T14:27:26.970-04:00(What's ironic is that scientists in the 1800s...(What's ironic is that scientists in the 1800s <i>did</i> bring up Jewish circumcision in the debates about inheritance of acquired characteristics. IIRC it was in a response that called superfluous an experiment involving cutting off generations of mice's tails.)M-nnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-91940712178086990632010-06-15T14:23:40.229-04:002010-06-15T14:23:40.229-04:00"Btw this is the funniest thing a friend of m..."Btw this is the funniest thing a friend of mine told me in Yeshiva about evolution: "<br /><br />I recently had a guy in shul tell me (with utter disdain in his voice) about how his rosh yeshiva said how stupid the scientists who believe in evoltution are: after all, Jews have been maal their sons for thousands of years and Jewish boys are still born with orlas. I was as polite as possible when I explained that his rosh yeshiva was an ignorant fool. Ok, I didn't say that (things like Lamarkism and the Weismann barrier were the actual content) but the lesson was clear. He was quiet after that, so I think he got it.M-nnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-50679596378242417752010-06-15T14:01:14.003-04:002010-06-15T14:01:14.003-04:00G*3,
Kiruv-type people are sometimes brought (in ...G*3,<br /><br />Kiruv-type people are sometimes brought (in more LW UO places) to speak at Yeshivas and Bais Yaakovs. <br /><br />Also many of my Rabbis in Yeshiva would occasionally go on long diatribes during shiur to the effect of CARBON DATING IS FALSE! EVOLUTION WAS MADE UP BY ANTI-SEMITES!, THE FLOOD MESSED UP THE FOSSIL RECORD. <br /><br />That type of (admittedly not formal) inoculation allows people to go into the real world without problems (until they encounter things that they are NOT familiar with) <br /><br />Btw this is the funniest thing a friend of mine told me in Yeshiva about evolution: <br /><br />"The most convincing argument against evolution is the fact that their are still monkeys around. If evolution is true then all the monkeys turned into people!"Shilton HaSechelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11445959470426455186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-91015200156869605312010-06-15T13:56:57.807-04:002010-06-15T13:56:57.807-04:00For me it was discovering that evolution was a tru...For me it was discovering that evolution was a true fact of history. I don't remember any one book being the tipping point. I had been told my whole life that evolution wasn't true and when I learned that was really, really, really true it ignited a fire that burned the rest down. Part of that process was learning how we know what's true, something obviously subversive of Orthodox belief.<br /><br />The book that did give me that shocked feeling was something Rabbi Louis Jacobs wrote about TSBP. It was one sentence but it was SO FUCKING OBVIOUS after I read it that I burned with shame and shock for not having realized it.M-nnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-50097502455069423672010-06-15T13:52:40.702-04:002010-06-15T13:52:40.702-04:00S,
>I've seen it referred to positively m...S, <br /><br />>I've seen it referred to positively many many times <br /><br />It seems that frum Jews like quoting PJ because <br /><br />A. He believes in a Jewish destiny and is clearly pro-Judaism (like you said) <br />B. He sounds authoritative and by extension makes one's history book/speech sound authoritative. I guess they think that if you only quote Religious Jews people will start to wonder how "academic" you are. <br /> <br />IMHO he is far from authoritative and his book (if I remember correctly) is full of inaccuracies that any Jew would pick up right away. <br /><br />(One specific one I remember was his claim that the name Menachem was rarely used by Jews until the Zionists came along)<br /><br />Also I doubt that most frummies let their kids read him.Shilton HaSechelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11445959470426455186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-20301692819523328232010-06-15T13:48:06.596-04:002010-06-15T13:48:06.596-04:00Every time I wasn't to debate Garnel, I rememb...Every time I wasn't to debate Garnel, I remember: this is the man that called 99.9999% of humanity Holocaust deniers!<br /><br />The man is ill.OTDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12284266882043971891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-17287785711194518592010-06-15T13:30:13.912-04:002010-06-15T13:30:13.912-04:00> It makes one wonder why the Charedi education...> It makes one wonder why the Charedi education system does not deem it necessary to deal with the DH. I guess they don't figure it to be as big a threat as evolution. (Also I guess they figure everyone knows about evolution anyway)<br /><br />The Chareidi education system doesn’t deal with evolution either. If it’s mentioned at all, it’s something along the lines of, “Evolution says people came from monkeys, so why aren’t the monkeys in the zoo turning into people?” There are plenty of yeshivas and Bais Yaakovs in NY where they skip the section of the biology textbook that deals with evolution and students are told to guess on the regents. <br /><br />Biblical criticism is treated the same way. It’s rarely mentioned, and when it is the conclusions are dismissed because “the goyim” don’t learn tanach with the midrashim and miforshim like we do.<br /><br />The approach of the Chariedi education system to challenges to Yiddishkeit is to mostly pretend they don’t exist (and thereby avoid exposing the masses to dangerous ideas) and to occasionally ridicule pathetic strawman versions.<br /><br />For me the path to skepticism was gradual and didn’t involve any grand philosophical problems or intellectual discoveries. It started with questioning things I learned that didn’t seem to make sense if thought of in a real-world context as opposed to the fairy-tale setting that seems to be the implicitly accepted backdrop for tanach. Because of my questions I was sent to talk to kiruv rabbonim. While I found some of their arguments impressive, others I found obviously illogical even as a naïve sixteen-year-old. That was when I discovered there were holes in Judaism. The more I learned, the bigger the holes got, until at some point there was nothing left.G*3https://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-56318667264727169912010-06-15T13:18:46.730-04:002010-06-15T13:18:46.730-04:00Spinoza: >Holocaust of brain cells
Gut gezogt!...Spinoza: >Holocaust of brain cells<br /><br />Gut gezogt! It's been years since I debated the imbrcile Garnel, and I'm still trying to get those brain cells back.OTDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12284266882043971891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-71565801716974728962010-06-15T13:17:44.077-04:002010-06-15T13:17:44.077-04:00Have a look here, and plug in the word Johnson:
h...Have a look here, and plug in the word Johnson:<br /><br />http://books.google.com/books?id=11f9xBbOBBEC&pg<br /><br />I randomly came upon footnote 30 on page 158. You'll see why he's so popular.S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-54265149683048788362010-06-15T13:15:57.554-04:002010-06-15T13:15:57.554-04:00My Pandora's box probably came from reading th...My Pandora's box probably came from reading the Bible. I was 20 years old and had been in yeshiva forever learning gemara and other bovine fecal matter. I decided I'd get back to the source and see what my crazy religion was actually based on. So I spent a few months going through the entire Tanach going through the English section (sometimes the Hebrew section). I was struck by how little resemblance Rabbinic Judaism had to Tanach. It was like different galaxies. I was also struck by the poor qulaity of writing throughout, and how sections from some books often practically mirrored sections from other books. One example of this was huge chunks of Divrei Hayamim and the historiography in Bamidbar are nearly identical. The more I read, the less I believed in TMS or in the divine origin of any books. I saw the books for what they so obviously were: works of primitive fiction written by barbarians at a time when civilization was in its earliest stages of infancy. The book isn't even wireh five minutes of anyone's time, let alone massive world relgions dedicated to its lies.<br /><br />Oh and did I mention? I got tossed from yeshiva FOR LEARNING NACH!!OTDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12284266882043971891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-37749641466167625412010-06-15T13:13:19.586-04:002010-06-15T13:13:19.586-04:00>Really? I thought frummies are supposed to sti...>Really? I thought frummies are supposed to stick to Rabbinicaly approved favorites like Berel Wein. <br /><br />It's one of the most Jewish-friendly history of the Jews written by a non-Jew. He also doesn't have a denominational axe to grind, something frum Jews tend to discern in the productions by non-Orthodox historians. <br /><br />I've seen it referred to positively many many times and, moreover, as an authoritative source by rabbis and other frum writers, in casual and formal settings. I think Rabbi Wein also cites him.<br /><br />I'll summarize why in one sentence by Jacob Neusner: "Johnson believes that the Jews have a separate and single specific identity, which they have maintained."S.http://onthemainline.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-53250979252080134652010-06-15T13:05:29.336-04:002010-06-15T13:05:29.336-04:00Garnel is a filthy liar who thinks he can make any...Garnel is a filthy liar who thinks he can make any assertion without backing it up. He invents tales whole cloth and then gets insulted when you don't believe him. Discovering such sleazy liars like him made me seriously question the credibility of all rabbis. Trust is like a mirror: You can fix it if its broke, but you'll always see a crack in the motherf****rs reflection.OTDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12284266882043971891noreply@blogger.com