tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post395313243659295211..comments2023-06-14T10:33:15.008-04:00Comments on Shilton HaSechel שלטון השכל: Is Kiruv Education?Shilton HaSechelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11445959470426455186noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-24591009267612867752012-10-29T21:32:40.073-04:002012-10-29T21:32:40.073-04:00I’ve been to aish – it is a friendly place. But i...I’ve been to aish – it is a friendly place. But it is built on the idea of getting you to feel you are part of the group, and then convincing you the group is provably defined by a provably G-d given Torah.<br /><br />The proofs are pure hell and you know why? First, these people you trust (who are nice and cool) are not only lying (through distortion, omission, and fabrication) to you, but they are lying to themselves.<br /><br /><br />Belief, proofs, it is all part of telling yourself implausible things, and then adopting those implausible things as facts. So, events are imagined to have happened thousands of years ago, and turned into things we KNOW happened. <br /><br />Lying to another person is wrong. Lying to yourself makes you a danger to people who rely on your good sense. It makes you a menace.<br /><br />TuviaTuvianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-61831437667982841232011-09-27T14:07:31.874-04:002011-09-27T14:07:31.874-04:00Define "education." Kiruv is "outr...Define "education." Kiruv is "outreach." I generally think of education as less a partisan endeavor than kiruv. Now, before you jump on me and point out all the biases in academe, allow me to add that I am fully aware of these. However, biases in academe are defects; bias in kiruv is the essence of the program.morganfrostnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-7331022621072438942011-09-21T18:54:04.868-04:002011-09-21T18:54:04.868-04:00Great post. I think you cant deny Kiruv of any edu...Great post. I think you cant deny Kiruv of any education identity. Its a form of education that likes to take it to the next level where it isnt only about knowledge anymoreYedid Nefeshnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-71086461157589435732011-09-21T11:55:39.319-04:002011-09-21T11:55:39.319-04:00Hi Jameel,
You're right, I should've been...Hi Jameel,<br /><br />You're right, I should've been clearer in this post, I'm not targeting ALL kiruv - just a certain (though prevalent) "brand" of Kiruv - the type that has the characteristics i listed in this post - but, to be fair, I could turn this back at you and say that lumping ALL kiruv together as mere "educating people about Judaism" is equally "wrong".<br /><br />Of course, I have to wonder if you would object *as much* if it wasn't Christian Missionaries but instead some manipulative Kiruv worker targeting chiloni children in Modi'in....Shilton HaSechelhttp://shiltonhasechel.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-56935098600102494412011-09-21T10:13:26.492-04:002011-09-21T10:13:26.492-04:00Hi Shilton: There are different types of Kiruv --...Hi Shilton: There are different types of Kiruv -- some are based on education, and yes, some are based on manipulative indoctrination. <br /><br />However, to lump all kiruv together is wrong. <br /><br />Do you consider the IDF Nativ program to be manipulative indoctrination? <br /><br />Regards...<br /><br />JameelJameel @ The Muqatanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-47018601392149919372011-09-21T10:12:25.029-04:002011-09-21T10:12:25.029-04:00I’ve had this conversation with people. At the end...I’ve had this conversation with people. At the end of the conversation, it usually boils down to, “Christian missionizing of Jews is wrong because Christians are wrong, while Kiruv is virtuos because we’re right.”<br /> <br />As you say, if Kiruv organizations were offering classes on Judaism, Jewish philosophy, etc., I’d have no objections, even if they were offering the classes in the hope that the attendees would become frum. It’s the sales tactics, the bad proofs, and the chasing after people that I object to.G*3http://2nd-son.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-87068812853500125812011-09-21T09:58:54.765-04:002011-09-21T09:58:54.765-04:00I've heard different stories from different pe...I've heard different stories from different people... I don't speak from any personal experience...Shilton HaSechelhttp://shiltonhasechel.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-79855873083434112292011-09-21T09:19:03.347-04:002011-09-21T09:19:03.347-04:00Spot on, as usual.
Of course, in the same way one...Spot on, as usual. <br />Of course, in the same way one could argue that ALL primary school education is just indoctrination into whichever belief system the school happens to ascribe to - be it liberal Democracy and the "obviously greater" system of capitalism (in the US public schools) or radical nationalism in Venezuela, for example.Chaynobodynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7001184305805559914.post-22474264000840899972011-09-21T09:14:27.354-04:002011-09-21T09:14:27.354-04:00Aish does NOT try to get people to become mindless...Aish does NOT try to get people to become mindless sheep who abandon their parents. THey most emphatically stress a gradual approach which includes maintaining ties with family members who are not religious. Your statement about Aish is an outrageous slander.Yossinoreply@blogger.com