Rabbi Slifkin posted this
Which got me thinking...
The only reason people accuse terrorists of being wrong is not because of their actions. Everyone, Radical Jihadist Muslims included agree that killing people is basically wrong. However, Jihadists believe that for the greater good and because, and this is important, Allah wants it - that an exceptions must be made.
Our disagreement boils down to contesting that very assumption i.e. that Allah wants it
Jews, Christians and other theists disagree because Muhammad and the Quran do not accurately represent the will of God.
Atheists disagree because they believe there is no God.
But I think most would agree that given that there is a benevolent and all knowing God, and given that this God wants you to kill some people, that that would be ok. Any moral offense you might personally feel to this directive stems from your short-sightedness. How can a puny mortal questions GOD's morality?
That being said killing Amalek is exactly the same as Jihad. The only difference is targets. The Orthodox Jew thinks that Biblical Jews knew who God really wanted killed and Muslims just happen to have got the wrong people. It follows that the act of religious killing itself is not the problem, the problem is one needs to make sure you got the right guy.
For an Orthodox Jew, I don't think you can object to religious killing per se, unless you deny God or literal word for word revelation. Since these are both tenets of Orthodox faith - I think it's time for Orthodox Jews out there to either rethink themsevles or rethink their visceral repulsion to Muslim terrorism.
Nebach! The poor terrorists are just trying to do Hashem's will, but unfortunately they just made a mistake when they ascribed divinity to the wrong prophet thus killing the wrong people...
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If you have the time, I highly recommend this lecture by Mark Dratch. The topic revolves around the sometimes conflict between natural law and Torah ethics. One of the best I have heard in a long time. (Skip the intro speaker - about 13 minutes.)
http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/763312/Rabbi_Mark_Dratch/Jihad...Kosher-Style:__How_Ethical_are_Jewish_Ethics
You hit the point right on! When it comes down to it - every Frum person MUST agree that the ONLY important criteria to doing or not doing something is "Ratzon Hashem" - no innate moral, no "natural order", NOTHING else counts. And if it just so happens that "Ratzon Hashem" is to kill your own son, you must do that as well. And certainly, killing men, women, and children of any other nation Hashem so deems. No questions, no thought, no personal feeling has any say here.
So then the question really comes down to only - what is His Holy desire? And how do you claim to know? THIS to me is the crux of all beliefs. And do we really have the proof to claim "WE know what He REALLY wants"?
What’s really interesting about his post is his attempt, and the worse attempts by the commenters, to show how WE are good and THEY are evil. I’m always fascinated by how religion expresses itself in basically the same way, regardless of culture or creed. Yes, the torah has morally questionable parts, and yes, a fundamentalist understanding of them puts Judaism on par with fundamentalist Islam. That fact should be taken as a warning of the dangers of fundamentalism, not a call to rationalize why we are better than them.
According to atheists killing anyone is ok, since everything is permitted.
I don't think an Orthodox Jew has this problem. My father who is Orthodox and learnt in Yeshiva fro 20 years believes wholeheartedly that God cannot tell someone to murder. As for Amalek and the A'keidah - Judaism is as Judaism does. We can give all kinds of apologetics for those historical commandments but today an Orthodox Jew is not compelled to believe in innocent murder.
"according to atheists killing anyone is ok, since everything is permitted."
Hahahah...thats why the frummest muslims and frummest jews are arguing over who should really be murdered, while the atheists are objecting to both parties!!
You live on a different planet
Can't tell if trolling or just a dumb kid
lunatic
Assuming Orthodoxy = complete divinity of the Pentateuch then you got a problem. The Torah says explicitly "wipe 'em out" no way around that accept admitting that it's not as divine as we thought - which is already not Orthodoxy in my book
I think this is an excellent point. In fairness, however, whatever Jews may think in the abstract about exterminating some group of Biblical characters, you really don't find anybody in the Jewish community engaging in that kind of behavior, nor do you find any support for that kind of behavior. Philosophically, there is an issue, but practically, there does seem to be a substantial observable difference between Jewish and Muslim practice.
Jews haven't exactly had too many historical opportunities to exercise religious warfare. But I have faith in our ability to become just as bad as them...תורת המלך
Shilton, the beauty of the slifkin mehod (which he did not do in that post) iz just simply say its Allegory, its not literal!!
You dont "literally" kill people - you wipe out the "amalek" in you,,,,what they represent...bla bla bla
You can't allegorize mitzvot cuz then you're antinomian
> You dont "literally" kill people - you wipe out the "amalek" in you,,,,what they represent...bla bla bla
Which is exacly what non-fundementalist Muslims say about Jihad.
I'm ok with Amalek being in the bible if it happened. If it didn't, if some sick puppy came up with this as an allegory...
Also, how come the rabbis didn't know this, and spoke about bashing in children's heads with stones?
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