First of all (for those living under a rock) by Orthopraxy I mean conforming to Orthodox practice and not to Orthodox belief.
Okay this comment got me a little annoyed:
what?!? said:
This was my response:
How seriously have these Orthopraxers sought answers to their questions? How much time do they invest into finding solutions? I guess it's just easier to watch TV and surf the web, rather than doing the homework. They're suffering from the same yetzer hara as everybody else; it just manifests itself differently.
Yezter Hara for what? A bifurcated lifestyle? A heart wrenching inner conflict? the feeling that you're living a lie? Oh yeah real appealing lifestyle! What a yetzer hara! Orthoprax is atheism without the benefits.That basically sums it up.
I know this is obvious and I'm just repeating things that people have been saying for years but I'm gonna say it anyway:
Orthopraxy gets you no benefits. Let me explain: Orthopraxy has some benefits according to some over a completely secular lifestyle however compared to Orthodoxy what do you gain from not being "dox" We still have to basically keep everything to maintain our reputation of being "Orthodox" so what are our "yetzer haras" whispering to us. What do I or any Orthopraxer out there gain from lack of belief. It's not like we're "liberated" due to our new beliefs because by definition we are still conforming to Orthodox practice (most of the time) I guess we don't have to cry and klap al chet because we ripped the toilet paper on Shabbat but is that our "reward". Is that what "makes it all worth it"?
Is it possible to be a believer and still realize that Orthopraxers are not "making excuses" for ulterior motives?
I think it is. The least and I repeat the least believers could do is say that we got "misguided" in our pursuit of truth. I'm not expecting them to think we have any truth to our arguments (because then they wouldn't be believers would they?) All I'm asking for is a realization that we reached our conclusions from intellectual reasons and NOT as some sort of excuse to be porek ol.
One last thing. Just because someone goes Off the Derech and proceeds to "live it up" does not necessarily mean that that was why he/she went OTD. There are many OTD'ers who have intelectual objections to Judaism and only then decide to leave it all.
So another message to believers: at least admit that we seek the truth just as much as you even though you feel that we have erred. And that some of us have no ulterior motives.
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I think the earlier part of the comment is enlightening:
"When the scholars encounter a problem for which they have not yet worked out a solution, what keeps their faith going? Presumably, they could offer real, practical advice for the Orthopraxers."
If one is going to condescend to others that they simply "have not done their homework," it may help to have more to go on than a presumption that someone else has done it for you. I suspect that people who write things like this don't even know what the "questions" are, much less have any answers. And thus, you get the great chain of Having-Faith-That-There's-An-Answer.
Hello Shilty,
Of course, skeptics get called intellectually lazy or having a big yetza harah problem. Why would Orthodox Jews deal with their intellectual opponents head on if they can just strawmen them? It makes it so much easier for Orthodox to do that. It is the same way in which gay people are accused of just choosing that lifestyle. See, if the Orthodox think of gay people that way then they save themselves the trouble of going through the challenging intellectual positions that face them if it turned out homosexuality is not a choice.
>Why would Orthodox Jews deal with their intellectual opponents head on if they can just strawmen them?
Well said.
Comments like this are maddening… but they’re also just repetition of standard religious dogma.
Judaism is held to be so self-evident that Avraham avinu figured it out for himself at three years old while hiding alone in a cave. It follows that anyone who denies the obvious truth of Judaism must be doing so because they mistakenly believe in an alternative theology or because they have reasons to delude themselves into denying the obvious truth. Someone who was frum doesn’t believe in any other religion, so that leaves the second reason.
It’s all very logical.
>Judaism is held to be so self-evident that Avraham avinu figured it out for himself at three years old while hiding alone in a cave
Yeah but we're not on the madrega of Avraham Avinu ;)
>because they mistakenly believe in an alternative theology
Why does belief in a mistaken theology make any more sense to them than belief in no theology?
> Why does belief in a mistaken theology make any more sense to them than belief in no theology?
Apparently there are these evil spirits in the world that by using the powers of tummah and kishuf masquerade as gods. So one could be fooled into believing in another religion.
No god is just crazy talk.
As I said in the past, this topic is most irksome to me and I intend to address it one day. See, I understand where the believers are coming from. Because giving in and claiming that sincere logic can indeed cause one to lose faith, gives everyone a loophole and it indeed contradicts the mitzvah of having Emuna. The line of reasoning kept me on the fence for several years until I finally met an Internet community of like-minded individuals.
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