Today a Rabbi gave a stupid drasha and waxed eloquently about about the four elements fire, water, air, and earth. Now I don't really object to that classification of the elements perse (despite the fact that it is obviously obsolete) but what reaaally bugs me is when Rabbis and people say "Judaism says that there are 4 elements etc." or the "Torah considers matter of consisting of four elements etc." NO! NO! NO!
The four elements are a completely non-Jewish concept. They are never mentioned anywhere in the Tanach (and I'm not sure if it's even in the Gemara but I could be wrong) and only snuck into Jewish literature from - yeah you guessed it the Greeks. In the time period when the Rabbis were writing it was considered established "science" that all matter consisted of those four elements. This was a completely Greek idea which was thought up by the Greek philosopher Empedocles HUNDREDS OF YEARS before the Mishna or Gemara were written. (Though Enuma Elish, apparently, does mention sea, earth, sky and wind but since the Torah was OBVIOUSLY not influenced by Baylonian mythology not really relevant) Furthermore Empedocles and other scholars using the idea took it very literally and considered water, air, fire, and earth the basic elementary materials of matter. (So none of this junk about "the four elements are mystical and spiritual") Nowadays we know Empedocles was wrong (open a chemistry book) and the prevailing atomic theory is more like the theory of Democritus.
So calling the four elements a "Jewish" or "Torah" idea is but another example of modern (modern only in the sense of happening to live in the modern era) Rabbis learning Gemara and Rishonim completely out of historical context (like Artscroll's Gemara notes) and concluding that Greek science which they read in the some Jewish text is in fact "Jewish science".
When will they ever learn....
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I think the Chinese had five elements, they added wood, but I may be wrong here because I do not have a reference for that. Four elements, I think as you said, was a Greek concept. Obviously, that is wrong, and it inspired alchemy, but nonetheless it was a good idea that Greeks came up with. My Rabbi, when I was in high school, claimed that it were the Jews that inspired the Greeks, not the other way around, because Shlomo Hamelech knew everything and the Greeks learned from him.
Ohh, what I like about Democritus is that he was an atheist, more than 2000 years ago. Wow, that is really inspiring, that in a world of pure superstitution there still remained a few rational people. This sometimes makes me have faith in humanity ... though I lost it when I found out the top two sold computer games of all time where Sims and Sims II.
You know the Albert Camus quote that goes "Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow. Don't walk behind me; I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend." So Uncle Moishie set that to the tune of "Lo Yisa Goy el Goy Cherev". And apparently, someone mentioned to a Chabadnik or some other Chareidi that the quote isn't from a Jewish source, and received a very harsh response, verging on accusations of kefira.
Are you sure Democritus was the atheist? Epicurus who was more of a Greek Deist (he believed in gods but said they don't affect us humans) adopted Democritus' atomic theory which implied more causality but I can't find any references discussing Democritus's views.
Lol classic!
really? how do you mean?
the shelo asani brachas are also from the greeks. you'd think the orthodox would rather admit it than have to deal with all the bad press they get from those brachas, but no.
Those of us who grew up in the 70s only remember Earth, Wind, and Fire :)
Maybe the rabbi meant to say that his theological approach was as up-to-date as alchemy.
Maimonides himself gives a hat tip in his Mishneh Torah where he calls them the wise men of Greece. If you read the first section of the first book it is all about "science". Needless to say, this is not emphasized in most Yeshivot.
Maimonides himself gives a hat tip in his Mishneh Torah where he calls them the wise men of Greece. If you read the first section of the first book it is all about "science". Needless to say, this is not emphasized in most Yeshivot.
On page 51 of Hawking's new book, he attributes the 4 elements theory to Aristotle.
that's what happens when physicists (or anyone for that matter) try to write outside of their fields (though Aristotle did adopt Empedocles's theory)
“Nothing exists except atoms and empty space; everything else is opinion”
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