I can't say this is a fact because I have never really looked into it but the feeling I get from my personal day to day experience is that Orthopraxic girls are very rare. Maybe I'm just hanging around the wrong circles but while I know lots of Orthoprax (or virtually Orthoprax) guys I barely know any Orthoprax gals...(though I know some who I feel could be tipped over the edge with a bit of subtle encouragement - if I was so inclined - which I'm not)
So either I'm just completely wrong about this or we're dealing with a real thing in which case we have to wonder WHY?
Some purely speculative pet theories (Again: assuming I'm describing a real phenomenon which I'm not sure about) :
In the Orthodox world girls are taught much less of the fundamental texts of Orthodoxy i.e. the Talmud and Rabbinic literature... Therefore they do perhaps do not know enough about Orthodoxy to effectively criticize it.
A variant of the first theory: When immersed in "Talmudism" one begins to think of religion as a very logical methodological thing. When religion fails, under scrutiny, to stand up to this expectation one ends up being skeptical. However, women who generally do not study Talmud, or even if they do - not as much as men, perhaps (and excuse me if this sounds a little stereotypical or sexist) think of religion less logically and more emotionally. Just to clarify, I'm not saying women are inherently "emotional". All I'm saying is that study Talmud might diminish the emotional element in religion and make one perceive religion in a much more technical or logical way. Since religion is not logical the Talmudic man will find himself at a bit of a loss. Since religion IS emotional the non-Talmudic woman will not.
Orthodoxy's sexism is too much for a self-respecting female to put up with and so cruising along Orthopraxly is just too distasteful if you think it's all rubbish. According to this Orthodox women are not less skeptical than men but merely pick up and leave.
Of course all of this is meaningless speculation without proper studies, but it's fun to muse about....
Please everyone, share your theories or tell me that I'm wrong about female skeptics...
(Oh just a clarification 'cuz I get the feeling in the comments that some people don't get this. I'm not running around rocking payos and a black hat and being Orthoprax. I associate with LWMO. So everything I describe is from my LWMO perspective. Back when I was in the Chareidi world I did not meet one male or female Orthopraxer and literally thought I might be the only one. Only very recently did I meet a black-hat Orthopraxer)
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Boys’ yeshivas start at 7:30 AM with Shacharis and end at 10:00 PM after night seder and maariv. Girls’ schools start at 9AM and end at 4:30.
Boys spend six hours a day learning gemara. Girls learn tanach, feel-good hashkafa, are given make-work like mi-amar0el-mi, and still have time for fun stuff like baking and concerts.
Men are expected to go to shul three times a day, and be on time for two-and-a-half hours of davening Shabbos morning. Women are not.
In general, I think women are given a more cuddly form of Judaism than men are. So there’s less motivation, on average, to reject it. I also think you’re right that women are taught to connect emotionally to Judaism far more than men are, and that, since religion is mostly emotional, it makes women less likely to question that connection.
> Orthodoxy's sexism is too much for a self-respecting female
In my experience, frum women are offended if you suggest that Judaism is sexist towards women. They’ll tell you about different roles as though the fact that different roles exist means it’s a good thing that different – and lesser – roles are mandated for women is a good thing. Then again, for a woman who does notice the sexism, perhaps you’re right.
>In my experience, frum women are offended if you suggest that Judaism is sexist towards women.
Let me rephrase Orthodoxy's sexism is too much for a self-respecting SKEPTICAL female. If a girl becomes a skeptic she'll stop buying the bullshit and find herself stuck in a system which is inherently sexist.
If figured this question out years ago. Skeptics are skeptics because they are sex addicts. Sexual addiction is rarer among women.
http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/07/jewish-skeptics-and-sex.html
Jacob - I have been a fully practicing strictly Frum Jew for far longer than you, yet I still find your condescending and self-righteous attitude both ugly and ineffective. Do you really think that by bantering OTD and orthoprax people with your mussar you will actually win them over?? This is not the derech I was taught in the tradition handed to me directly from my parents and grandparents and great-grandparents... ad sof hadaros.
The Rambam's classic Moreh Nevuchim is full of philosophical questions of the skeptic kind. Was the Rambam a sex-addict according to you??
If you have ever read the Haggadah, you would know that winning over skeptics is not a Jewish tradition:
The wicked one, what does he say? "What is this service to you?!" He says `to you,' but not to him! By thus excluding himself from the community he has denied that which is fundamental. You, therefore, blunt his teeth and say to him: "It is because of this that the L-rd did for me when I left Egypt"; `for me' - but not for him! If he had been there, he would not have been redeemed!"
http://www.chabad.org/holidays/passover/pesach_cdo/aid/1737/jewish/Maggid.htm
As a black- hatted orthoprax male, I will say that I've personally not met many other orthopraxers of any sort in person. One of the few that I've met is actually a chassidishe woman, married with kids. She qualities as orthoprax because she's not otd and will still happily discuss what sort of uses God might have for a vibrator or other such rather unorthodox topics. She's probably not representative, but she does have two qualities which might be informative: she sought me out personally on Facebook because of shared intellectual pursuits, and she writes a blog on religion that's not about orthopraxy. Maybe females are less public and less interested in orthopraxy as a subject.
Jake, you should read rabbi lamm's interpretation of the wicked son's question and response. Its the polar opposite of the way you view it, and quite more effective, and thus true than yours
There's no need for any interpretation.
Looking at the skeptic blogs, it's about 90% male. Even the non-Jewish atheist blogs seem to be all, or nearly all, guys.
Darn! Why didn't I think of the sexual addiction!? Thinking back my skepticism really began to burgeon after my fourth or fifth orgy... Of course being an agnostic in Yeshiva was exceedingly convenient because of all the girls who were around to shag.. Who knows what I would have done all day in Yeshiva if my pesky Yezter Hatov would have stopped me from going at it with all the hot chicks who frequented the Yeshiva's halls...
Mr. Stein, your little fantasy world full of menacing sexually addicted atheists, mass conspiracies, and whatever the hell else goes through your mind - must be a most frightening place...
K let's sum up your position so that you have no more need to repeat it ad nauseum all over the blogosphere
- Atheists are people deluding themselves in order to justify their desire for otherwise forbidden things primarily sex
-The theory of Evolution is a mass atheist conspiracy to further justify the hedonistic atheist lifestyle
- TMS and God and etc. are self evident facts which Mr. Stein has proven conclusively - nay scientifically! - on his blog
Glad we got that all out of the way - now you can stop looking for attention on skeptic blogs.... We all know what you think... no need to repeat it.
K let's sum up your position so that you have no more need to repeat it ad nauseum all over the blogosphere
- Jews are people deluding themselves in order to justify their desire to inflict unnecessary pain upon themselves
- Judaism is a mass Jewish conspiracy to further justify the masochistic Jewish lifestyle
- Amoebas turning into people, Ezra's authorship of the Torah etc. are self evident facts which Shilton HaSechel has proven conclusively - nay scientifically! - on his blog
Not quite - but whatever.
Either way unless you have something new to add to the dialogue instead of just repeating the same things you've been saying for the last 5 something years - I see little point in you continuing to comment...
I think that my original comment answers brilliantly the question you ask in this post. Your welcome.
I actually touched upon this in a comment (read:Rant) I recently left on your blog-- I'm fascinated by the question as well. And although I don't necessarily grant the premise, I think it interesting to analyze this possible disparity, if only purely hypothetically. In the interest of time I'm just going to copy and paste. Hope that's alright. If not, feel free to delete this.
'In response to a previous comment regarding the paucity of female skeptics, I'd like to offer a hypothesis:
First, it has been my experience- and I'm talking as a former Bais Yaakov student here- that religious girls are more likely to suffer intellectually as a result of the gendered role-playing that goes on in the frum society. Sure, the normative thinking pattern inhibits the men, but it practically enslaves the women, makes them veritable cripples.
Second, the girls that actually do break free have a far easier time abandoning the system completely and adapting to a new social scene. Their lives are less regimented and systematic than their yeshiva-going male counterparts, and there's more room for freedom and acculturation (i.e, Bais Yaakov girls are already watching chick flicks starring Brad Pitt and listening to Lady Gaga- in some cases they merely have to put on jeans to make an almost seamless transformation.)'
Thoughts? Anybody agree or disagree?
Orthodox women have much more secular education than their brothers, so if philisophical reasons were really behind apostasy, we would naturally expect to see far more female apostates. Actually that's not the case.
The fact is that Western atheism, whose main attraction is promiscuity, is mainly a male religion. Women are not generally that hot on it.
Normally, a failure to respond to an argument would indicate that the argument in question is granted, but I'm thinking any jury would agree that analyzing your ludicrous points would only validate your obvious psychosis.
Well, same to you!
As a Bais Yacov alumnus I disagree that the transformation is seamless although it is prob
I also disagree that women are less represented on the skeptic blogosphere. I'm reading women's ex frum blogs all the time.
Women ARE less represented on the Still Orthodox but skeptic-in-the-closet blogs.
Perhaps this is because women are the real sex addicts ;)
Could it be that OJ women are burnt out? An elaborated response here:http://coinlaundryblog.blogspot.com/2011/12/miafemale-oj-skeptics.html
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