E said...
One thing I will say about my statement that there is reason to believe is that ultimately there are a number of intelligent people out there that have read everything you have read, know everything you know and still believe in the Torah. I am aware that there aren't that many people that fit this description. I am also aware that not all of them are intellectually honest. But, I hope we can agree on this, these people do exist. (That doesn't mean they're right. There are lots of very clever and knowledgable atheists and I'm not an atheist.) I presume these people have a reason for believing the Torah is more than just an interesting ANE text. I think you'd do better asking people that fit the above description rather than me why they believe. Reasons for believing exist, whether you find them convincing or not.
Before people jump on him, I want to say that E brings up a very important point. I personally have met people who know everything I do and have read everything I read and YET still believe in Judaism. I'll go one step further I personally know people who believe in the Documentary Hypothesis, agree that you can't prove God exists and STILL believe in Judaism (and keep it devoutly!). This is an extremely interesting phenomenon and seeing this phenomenon has led me to the conclusion that believing in Judaism or not believing in Judaism has very little to do with intelligence. Some people out there would expect there to be a direct correlation between intelligence and NOT believing in Judaism but that's simply not true, as we know some of the greatest Rabbis were simply geniuses, and STILL believed this stuff. And we're not just talking about brainwashed uneducated Rabbis, even Rabbis who knew all the facts and read all the literature buy Judaism.
So what's it all about?
Firstly I have to quote Michael Shermer on this one. In his book Why People Believe Weird Things: He makes a bold but insightful statement: "Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non smart reasons."
Michael Shermer in this pithy little statement has summed up a whole lot of human psychology. Generally speaking people arrive at their beliefs for non-intelligent reasons. Once they already have a belief they will prop it up with "explanations", "justifications".
Now, I'm not saying this is inconceivable, but I would be extremely interested to meet someone who grew up an atheist or agnostic, learned everything about the DH and proofs of God and everything us skeptics know, and then in spite of all this decided Judaism was correct. Now THAT would be a person worth talking too, because as far as I know most intelligent informed people who believe in Judaism despite knowing about skepticism and Biblical criticism etc. are Frum From Birth. (e.g. Louis Jacobs, James Kugel, etc.) In other words they believed in Judaism from the beginning, faced some challenges to it, and then summarily solved these problems with a bit of ingenuity.
This is important because it would add a degree of objectivity to the question. If Judaism was logically sound, as opposed to merely logically defensible, we would expect people to flock to it the way they do to Science and mathematics and other objective things. The fact that people don't, in my mind, shows that Judaism is defensible, but not justifiable, from a logical perspective.
More about this in another post...
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41 comments:
Great post. I've been meaning to read Shermer's book forever, but the quote definitely helps explain a lot. BTW, it is conceivable that you could get a "BT James Kugel" . . .If someone has transformed their life to an extreme degree, they have invested a tremendous amount in this belief, and as a result could similarly use their ingenuity to solve inconvenient problems.
I think that if I were motivated to, I could build a pretty solid justification for keeping Judaism. After all, once you accept the basic premises, everything else follows. Once you believe that God gave the Torah on Har Sinai and that rabbinic interpretation creates valid halachah, not touching muktzah on Shabbos follows from there.
I’ve found that arguments for Judaism from informed and honest people tend to be along the lines of, “It COULD be true, I have a lot invested in it, so I’m going to act as if it’s true.”
My favorite argument: "Rabbi Soloveitchik believed, and he was a very smart man. Are you saying you're smarter than the Rav?"
You don't believe in alchemy? Isaac Newton believed in alchemy and he was one of the smartest people that ever lived. Are you saying you're smarter than Isaac Newton?
Excellent, insightful post. Keep up the good work.
I thought about that and implied it in my post " and then in spite of all this decided Judaism was correct." the word then is in bold because I wanted to make clear that our theoretical BT only goes BT AFTER s/he has considered all these things
Excellent! Shilty - truly one of your best posts! Simple logic.
If I may, I will take this idea one step further. All those who believe in the Torah despite "knowing everything you know and reading everything you've read" and still choose do to so without objective, clear-cut proof, also believe that God at some point will take to task all those people who chose NOT to believe (because of lack-of-proof, or evidence to the contrary, etc.) for making the wrong choice.
This to me is itself morally reprehensible - they would actually accept a God who would so challenge His creations to the point of punishing them for having used their faculties to the best of their abilities to follow what they believed was the truth??? After everything they know - do they STILL think there is enough proof/logic to the point where any other choice is untenable?
Fair enough.
"All those who believe in the Torah despite "knowing everything you know and reading everything you've read" and still choose do to so without objective, clear-cut proof, also believe that God at some point will take to task all those people who chose NOT to believe (because of lack-of-proof, or evidence to the contrary, etc.) for making the wrong choice."
Not true. I don't know much about Kugel or Jacobs but I can't imagine they fit into your description. And even if you changed the word "All" to "Most", I still think you're mistaken.
I'm famous!
What about Benjamin Sommer:http://www.jtsa.edu/x10025.xml?ID_NUM=11052Does he fit the description?I don't know if he was FFB, but good chance he wasn't.Shilton, I don't understand what you mean in your last paragraph. You believe that Judaism is logically defensible, but not logically justifiable. What do you mean by that?I don't really disagree with anything you wrote in this post. I agree with the Shermer quote. (I'm not certain that it applies to our case, although it's definitely a possibility).
I'm sure God will understand...
I mean that you can defend it with logic but you can't start believing in it in the first place according to logic
From your own account you sound philosophically like a Conservative or Reconstructionist Jew why did you choose Orthodoxy?
" In other words they believed in Judaism from the beginning"
They were tought itstruth from birth, or brainwashed. Cant shake that.
As far as you question, are you asking it of ANY baal teshuva? I mean, most BTs i know convert or frum out because they want some kind of meaning to their life, moreso than they are getting in their secular life, and they see a nice way to raise a family, broadly speaking.
Sorry long again..but hard to answer your question succinctly.
First, My own personal experience with the Conservative Movement (CM) and other non-Orthodox movements was one that witnessed a tremendous lack of basic knowledge and commitment to the Jewish spiritual practice and mission among a majority of the general population and even some Rabbis and other leaders of these movements.
I'm not saying there are not very serious, committed (even frum) Conservative Jews. There absolutely are, I know some. But as a whole, the CM seems to lack direction and continually seems to feel and act less and less "Conservatively." Although, there are some more traditional Conservative shuls out there.
However, Orthodoxy is one that I found in the end forces one to be disturb oneself through consistent engagement with one's journey though Life and striving for holiness. Yes, of course, there are many so-called "religious" people who identify as "Orthodox" and act ignorantly or immorally, but that just indicates how far "off the mark" they really are. Theologically, as well it seems there are Conservative thinkers and Rabbis who do espouse that the Torah is completely man made. I do not believe this at all. The Torah may have very well been channeled through human experience (or maybe not I am humble enough to admit I could be wrong) but I absolutely do have Faith that these works are "bona fide" revelation from G-d. Thus, I strive to be loyal to a Halakhic-based "Art of Living" because for me it acts as a spiritual framework for my own personal growth and evolution on a "soul level."The reality is, in my experience most lay people who attend a typical non-Orthodox shul do not understand or "get" why one would personally choose to live by a tradition based in Halacha. But this is what philosophically separates Orthodox from non-Orthodox Jews..no? (despite the range of Orthodoxy that does exist.) Look, I don't care if your FFB, BT or OP... we ALL end up choosing in today's world that is truly now a mosaic of an open marketplace of ideas and different ways to live a good and meaningful life! May we all choose wisely...
What are you talking about?? Reward and punishment is one of the 13 basic precepts of belief that every (ok, almost every) Orthodox Jew believes, and since belief in God (and keeping the Torah) is itself one of the ABSOLUTE requirements for a Jew - then anyone who accepts the Torah MUST believe that anyone who doesn't keep it will be punished for it.
Do you think that they would actually believe that the laws punishing with death those who blaspheme or make a Chillul Hashem (which according to the Rambam applies to anyone who violates the Torah in front of 10 Jewish males) suddenly dont apply??
1. Nobody (Rambam included) cares what the 13 principles say.
2. Its an allegory, a moshol, blah blah blah etc.
3. As for death by stoning and all that different time period, things were different back then, blah blah blah etc.
There are "answers" to everything.
>They were tought itstruth from birth, or brainwashed. Cant shake that.
well i did ;)
and do you think that a bunch of laws rabbis in the 1st-7th centuries made up, (or derived, or darshened etc.) are important?
Maybe we continue discussion by email i have lots of questions. Maybe an interview for the blog if you're interested, you seem to have a lot to say ;)
> However, when I say I have "faith" for example in the "revelation at Sinai" (in a sense) it is me saying to myself, "May G-d give me the faith and ability to grow and live as a spiritually striving person so that I will live my life in a manner that is truly consistent with a complete and total faith in the "Revelation at Sinai."
Okay, but why? Why do you want to have faith? And why in Judaism? Why doesn’t it bother you that you need to pray to God to enable you to believe in Him? That faith is irrational? And why bother?
You did? You keep shabbat? Kosher?
Great questions G*3.
For me, the need to strive for growth on a "soul level" (that is.. a level deeper than the physical and purely rational) is probably the cornerstone of why I pursue Faith. Judaism is about trying to transform not only oneself (intellectually and spiritually) but ultimately the world one person at a time little by little. So, I want to transform & grow personally, I want my family to grow, I want my community to grow, I want humanity to grow. Are there many routes to meaningful transformation? Of course!
Nature itself is reflective of that in the way it has utilized natural selection. But if you are going to transform and become a better "version" of yourself you're gonna need to find the right mix of tools and strategies to do that. I have found that Modern Orthodox Judaism does that for me by striving to engage my intellect, in the analysis of my behavior, in the practicing of meditation and prayer, in an emphasis on gratitude and in the utilizing of ritual to sanctify my Earthly existence. Are there other traditions that may do the same thing for other people? Naturally..
I don't find at all that my performance of prayer is required to enable me to maintain a believe in G-d. Prayer is the demonstrative action I take in response to my Faith in something beyond this reality that I hope is "rooting" for me in my own personal journey of "soul transformation."
I say that Faith is "irrational" because it is not based on anything that I have ever perceived with my senses but is based on my own intuition, emotion, experience and struggle for meaning.
Thus, for me.. Faith and Reason are two opposite sides of the same coin!
G*3 - sorry you also asked "why bother?"Because I do have a desire to be a better version of myself, and I do want the world to be a better version of the world, and I think the Jewish tradition has something to say in terms of how to contribute to those goals. Why do I have such a desire? I don't know I like to feel like I'm continually growing, learning, accomplishing and contributing. Rabbi Sacks says something like... Judaism engages with the world that really is but strives for the world that ought to be!......I think this notion is in part why I bother.
People who have never heard of Judaism also have the desire and motivation for self-improvement, as well as to contribute to society. It's insulting and hilarious that you think otherwise.
no i shook the "truth from birth.." assuming you mean shaking as in escaping etc.
Tesyaa-
As a reply to your published comment,
"People who have never heard of Judaism also have the desire and motivation for self-improvement, as well as to contribute to society. It's insulting and hilarious that you think otherwise."- it is also extremely insulting, hilarious and sad you would make such a comment that obviously so blatantly indicates that you did NOT read my comments very carefully! I NEVER said such a thing. Go back and re-read please.
In response to Danny, perhaps I misinterpreted what you wrote:
I don't know I like to feel like I'm continually growing, learning, accomplishing and contributing.
Given the context of this statement (in response to "why bother?"), I inferred that you feel you can't "grow, learn, accomplish and/or contribute" without Judaism. If this is not what you meant, I apologize ... but what exactly were you trying to say?
Tesyaa-
No worries- just please be careful with making assumptions and inferences..we are "communicating" via blog after all..
What I'm trying to convey is that Judaism offers one "particular" tradition based on the history, experience, practice and collective wisdom of a specific people.
It's not meant to be for everyone!
But.. (in my humble opinion) it sure does have something to say in hopefully making a positive contribution to the moral, intellectual and spiritual growth and evolution of humankind. Hence, the goal of "attempting to engage with the world that really is but striving for a world that ought to be.."
There are of course other wonderful and beautiful wisdom and spiritual traditions that also have something to say about that goal as well...Look outside your window..how many different kinds of trees and shrubs do you see? How many different kinds of insects and birds? How many different kinds of animals? They are all bound by being made up of the same "stuff" (ie atoms, molecules, DNA, proteins) but yet so incredibly different!
As Rabbi Sacks would say, diversity emanates from a root of unity..this appears to hold true as well for human wisdom and spiritual traditions.
It's interesting to watch your evolution. Just like all the other atheoskeptic blogs you started with important questions and points and now you're moving on to conceit and dismissiveness. Give it a few months and you'll be openly calling all religious people stupid, dismissing the idea that anyone sensible could believe in it. A few months more and you'll be openly issuing declarations of hate and frothing when anyone tried to defend Judaism.
excuse me, I believe you "dismiss the idea that anyone sensible could believe" in atheism. Do you not realize how hypocritical you're being.
secondly i'm not calling religious people stupid, I didn't say anything about stupid. I specifically am talking about intelligent people. I'm just trying to understand a mindset that I don't share. Did you even read the post?
You seem to be oddly defensive for someone so confident in his own views.
1) Of course atheists aren't sensible. The universe came from somewhere. Something caused the Big Bang or whatever you want to say was the first event in history. The definition of God is that First Cause. You can argue whether He continued to be involved in history, revealed Himself at Sinai but you can't deny there's a first cause. Atheists do. That's why I've never gone after agnostics.
2) No, you're not calling religious people stupid... yet. I'm just pointing out that all these blogs follow the same arc and that's where they end.
i.e. you conceitedly and dismissively reject my word view while accusing me of being conceited and dismissive of your world view... interesting...
hi i enjoyed your post even if its old news but its well written
anyway i would like to add a thought you explain very well why smart people believe
i would like to like at the other side why did only we (otd, undercovered) came to this conclusion that its not true are we more educated or smarter then everyone who stays jewish?
So if I understand you correctly, you believe in God a priori, seek to improve yourself and the world, and think the MO Judaism is as good a way as any to effect those improvements.
Fair enough. Do you think that the tenets of Orthodoxy are true? Were yetzias Mitzrayim and maamid Har Sinia historical events? Also, practically speaking, what kind of improvements are you looking for? It’s hard to see how we improve ourselves or the world by waving a bundle of twigs around for a week.
> The definition of God is that First Cause.
Says you.
Really, you ought to know better than that. You’ve been around the blogosphere a long time. Surely you’ve been through the Cosmological Argument a time or two. Saying that something had to be the Prime Mover is very different than saying God did it.
Unless you’re trying to say that the First Cause, whatever it is, is the new definition of God, and you’re letting go of the traditional definition (0omnipotent, omniscient, personal, etc.). If so, you should be careful. Spinoza was put in cherem for something very similar.
No. We, for whatever reasons, were motivated to examine our religion more closely, and to dismiss the apologetics. Those who stay are motivated to handwave the inconsistencies.
G*3 (sorry I write such long replies!!)
In reply to: "Fair enough. Do you think that the tenets of Orthodoxy are true? Were yetzias Mitzrayim and maamid Har Sinia historical events?"
Personally, for me I think it's very probable that some incredible event(s) involving emancipated slaves from Egypt probably did happen. I base this is on the hunch (make note that this is not based on any logic or any evidence at all) that the presence and knowledge of Egyptian words, geography and culture in the Torah is a likely indicator of intimate interaction with and exposure to the Egyptian Empire. Furthermore, most stories that modern novelists and screenwriters create are usually based on at least some level of personal experience or notable factual event. In other words, I don't think the essence of the theme of the Exodus story was just made up. I think there most likely was a Moses or a Moses-like figure who really did live and really did have some type of real, powerful and spiritual experience.
However, if you think about it..you can see why it may have been important to convey to the general Israelite population that every single word of the Torah was written on Mount Sinai as dictated to Moshe Rabeinu by G-d. Because if you are trying to teach a people who are so ingrained with the practice of worshiping Canaanite "regional" gods (El, Asherah, Baal and others), how else can you begin to cultivate the idea of having Emunah in a G-d of the Universe for all things and all beings everywhere?
Thus, I would argue that it is possible for Halachic-based Judaism to come to a place where one's Emunah need not be based on the "historicity" the Bible as an objective "fact" (though clearly there are things in the Tanach that are indeed based on factual events) and instead be based on the "real"ness of the Torah's revolutionary drive to strive for a better version of humanity. Thus, emunah in G-d and the Torah's vision becomes something that is a pursuit based on the Laws, ideals and goals of the Jewish tradition that helps foster humanity's growth as a species with the potential to master "holiness."
"Also, practically speaking, what kind of improvements are you looking for? It’s hard to see how we improve ourselves or the world by waving a bundle of twigs around for a week."
What kind of improvements? So, you're saying you don't have personal faults and imperfections you would like to work on about yourself? We all do insensitive, selfish and not nice things. We're all human after all. Acquiring wisdom about the nature of reality and existence is not something I think you just find by living your normal day to day life or doing experiments in a lab or getting a collegiate degree or exercising etc. And what about dealing with the pressures and stresses of Life itself? You don't have that? I'm sure you do.
The Jewish tradition (when practiced healthfully and meaningfully) I think is one way that assists those who are participating in the tradition grow as humans to become better versions of themselves.
As far as ancient rituals go, maybe there is no direct functional relevance for the tradition in modern day (or to be open-minded maybe there is on a level we are unaware), but I do believe these rituals help connect us to the humans of an earlier time who lived in a much more naive era of human experience. Thus, we're using ritual to connect to human beings who lived so long ago and who shared the same hopes, fears and dreams that all of us still have today but in a different context. Also, Sukkot in particular reminds us that despite all of out technology etc. we are still very much dependent on the fruits of Earth for our very lives. If you ask me, that's something we all should be reminded of from time to time.
G*3 (sorry I write such long replies!!)
In reply to: "Fair enough. Do you think that the tenets of Orthodoxy are true? Were yetzias Mitzrayim and maamid Har Sinia historical events?"
Personally, for me I think it's very probable that some incredible event(s) involving emancipated slaves from Egypt probably did happen. I base this is on the hunch (make note that this is not based on any logic or any evidence at all) that the presence and knowledge of Egyptian words, geography and culture in the Torah is a likely indicator of intimate interaction with and exposure to the Egyptian Empire. Furthermore, most stories that modern novelists and screenwriters create are usually based on at least some level of personal experience or notable factual event. In other words, I don't think the essence of the theme of the Exodus story was just made up. I think there most likely was a Moses or a Moses-like figure who really did live and really did have some type of real, powerful and spiritual experience.
However, if you think about it..you can see why it may have been important to convey to the general Israelite population that every single word of the Torah was written on Mount Sinai as dictated to Moshe Rabeinu by G-d. Because if you are trying to teach a people who are so ingrained with the practice of worshiping Canaanite "regional" gods (El, Asherah, Baal and others), how else can you begin to cultivate the idea of having Emunah in a G-d of the Universe for all things and all beings everywhere?
Thus, I would argue that it is possible for Halachic-based Judaism to come to a place where one's Emunah need not be based on the "historicity" the Bible as an objective "fact" (though clearly there are things in the Tanach that are indeed based on factual events) and instead be based on the "real"ness of the Torah's revolutionary drive to strive for a better version of humanity. Thus, emunah in G-d and the Torah's vision becomes something that is a pursuit based on the Laws, ideals and goals of the Jewish tradition that helps foster humanity's growth as a species with the potential to master "holiness."
"Also, practically speaking, what kind of improvements are you looking for? It’s hard to see how we improve ourselves or the world by waving a bundle of twigs around for a week."
What kind of improvements? So, you're saying you don't have personal faults and imperfections you would like to work on about yourself? We all do insensitive, selfish and not nice things. We're all human after all. Acquiring wisdom about the nature of reality and existence is not something I think you just find by living your normal day to day life or doing experiments in a lab or getting a collegiate degree or exercising etc. And what about dealing with the pressures and stresses of Life itself? You don't have that? I'm sure you do.
The Jewish tradition (when practiced healthfully and meaningfully) I think is one way that assists those who are participating in the tradition grow as humans to become better versions of themselves.
As far as ancient rituals go, maybe there is no direct functional relevance for the tradition in modern day (or to be open-minded maybe there is on a level we are unaware), but I do believe these rituals help connect us to the humans of an earlier time who lived in a much more naive era of human experience. Thus, we're using ritual to connect to human beings who lived so long ago and who shared the same hopes, fears and dreams that all of us still have today but in a different context. Also, Sukkot in particular reminds us that despite all of out technology etc. we are still very much dependent on the fruits of Earth for our very lives. If you ask me, that's something we all should be reminded of from time to time.
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