Just want to follow up on my post from the other day about Torah and Science etc.
A lot of discussion went into the comments about science and Torah and all that and I just want to stress again, that even though it's interesting to discuss, its really irrelevant, because there is no proof that the Torah is anything more than an interesting ANE book.
You can say the Torah doesn't contradict Science. You can say that it alludes to scientific ideas, but ultimately expecting to find science in the Torah is like expecting to find science in the Epic of Gilgamesh or in the Iliad. (I'm pretty sure that someone could read one of these ANE god-stories as alluding to different elements combining to create different parts of the universe, someone with enough time on their hands should give it a try.)
Once again, it all boils down to proof, can anyone prove that the Torah is anything more than an ANE religious text? I personally don't think so.
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I don't think proof is the issue. The issue is likelihood. What is the likelihood that the Torah is anything more than an ANE religious text? .00000000000001% ?
Your figure is way too generous.
Any proof that Origin of Species is anything other than a ridiculous 19th piece of atheist propaganda? I don't think so.
Barely anyone tries to prove the Torah is the word of God by showing how well Torah and Science fit.
"there is no proof that the Torah is anything more than an interesting ANE book. "
No proof. But there's definitely reason to believe that it is something more than just an interesting ANE book.
You are mixing up science and fairy tales
Give the top 3 reasons please
By all means write a detailed explanation for logical reasons why I should assume that the Torah is more than an interesting ANE book. I'll post it on the blog and let folks review it.
That's quite a challenge. Not sure if I should accept. I know I'm going to be ridiculed. I'll think about it.
Why didn't you reply to my last message to you Ksil?
Well you'll be critiqued for sure, but no one died from a little critique.
We can have a debate if you want but you'd have to do it debate style
Shiltonhasechel said: "We can have a debate if you want but you'd have to do it debate style"
I'm not interested in a debate and I'm not going to write a detailed explanation of logical reasons why one should believe the Torah is anything more than an interesting ANE book either.
I don't really have the time. I also only expect scorn and derision no matter how sound my reasoning is and I don't see the benefit. What the readers of this blog think of Judaism or religious Jews really doesn't bother me and I most certainly understand where you're coming from if you have come to the conclusion that the Torah is merely an interesting ANE book.
What I will do, bli neder, is send you an email one day and we'll discuss the issue. I am open to criticism and changing my mind if given a convincing argument.
One thing I will say about my statement that there is reason to believe is that ultimately there are a number of intelligent people out there that have read everything you have read, know everything you know and still believe in the Torah. I am aware that there aren't that many people that fit this description. I am also aware that not all of them are intellectually honest. But, I hope we can agree on this, these people do exist. (That doesn't mean they're right. There are lots of very clever and knowledgable atheists and I'm not an atheist.) I presume these people have a reason for believing the Torah is more than just an interesting ANE text. I think you'd do better asking people that fit the above description rather than me why they believe. Reasons for believing exist, whether you find them convincing or not. (I even think that you can come up with some reasons by yourself, even if ultimately they don't convince you.)
I think that a good reason for believing is that we have so many sources telling us the events in the Torah are true. Like who would question ma'amad har sinai with so many different sources telling us it happened. J, E and D all believed it (and R even took their word for it). ;)
Well that's a shame i love debates, either ways i look forward to your email
Also you bring up an interesting and important issue about intelligent people believing these things. Please don't take offense at the implication but I think this issue is discussed in Michael Shermer's book "Why People Believe Weird Things": He sums up it up as follows:
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons."
I'd be interested to find a NON-FFB out there who has read everything i've read knows everything I know and still believes in the Torah. THAT would be interesting!
I can't speak for everyone, but many people, including myself, for a long period of time, have rationalized their belief with the idea that Rabbi Soloveitchik believed, and he was a very smart man.
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